Saturday, March 08, 2014

Science and faith

Notes from last several months. 

I have been engaging in a short online discussion with several young physicians (friends of Amy) who believe that God can be found through logic and intellectual inquiry. I believe that is not possible. Saying that I don't like/want to eat broccoli is not a matter for
scientific inquiry. Faith is believing and from some other reference frame it can
look quite illogical, unscientific and maddening. The Bible is not a history nor scientific
book. Folks who try to fit it into an engineering/scientific framework do not
understand science nor Faith. There have been attempts to make religion more
"respectable" by cover it under a scientific/intellectual facade. A famous quote:

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”

― Marcus Aurelius, Meditations

These young physicians sent me this link:

http://www.spiritscienceandmetaphysics.com/scientists-claim-that-quantum-theory-proves-consciousness-moves-to-another-universe-at-death/

My response: 

This is not science. It is speculation. There is no evidence of life after death. Quantum physics says nothing about "consciousness moves to another Universe at death"! Please see http://www.skepdic.com/nde.html (and many reputable other sources) in which "....(scientists) attribute the feelings of extreme peacefulness of the NDE to the release of endorphins in response to the extreme stress of the situation. The buzzing or ringing sound is attributed to cerebral anoxia and consequent effects upon the connections between brain cells (op. cit., 64).

Dr. Karl Jansen has reproduced NDEs with ketamine, a short-acting hallucinogenic, dissociative anesthetic.

The anesthesia is the result of the patient being so 'dissociated' and 'removed from their body' that it is possible to carry out surgical procedures. This is wholly different from the 'unconsciousness' produced by conventional anesthetics, although ketamine is also an excellent analgesic (pain killer) by a different route (i.e. not due to dissociation). Ketamine is related to phencyclidine (PCP). Both drugs are arylcyclohexylamines - they are not opioids and are not related to LSD. In contrast to PCP, ketamine is relatively safe, is much shorter acting, is an uncontrolled drug in most countries, and remains in use as an anaesthetic for children in industrialised countries and all ages in the third world as it is cheap and easy to use. Anaesthetists prevent patients from having NDE's ('emergence phenomena') by the co-administration of sedatives which produce 'true' unconsciousness rather than dissociation.* 

According to Dr. Jansen, ketamine can reproduce all the main features of the NDE, including travel through a dark tunnel into the light, the feeling that one is dead, communing with some god,..."

  • Michael Wyn I share your hope and wish that there is life after death. But as far as we know now the prospect does not look too good. I am more a skeptic and would like to see better evidence... before believing...
  • Radeyah Sos you're so smart
  • Amy Marcos if you mean Michael Wyn, he has to be heading a tech company !
  • Alvro Ramoz That's one informed fella.
  • David Ramos Michael interesting stuff. If you haven't already, you should look into DMT / dimethyltryptamine - it takes what you've described with Dr. Jansen to a much more profound level that dwarfs the outer body effects of those ketamine derivatives ... Science does not trump such speculation nor rule out the possibility of life after death - science has no greater weight than speculation when it comes to arguing over these grand questions of life / death. In my humble opinion, science as we know it is much speculation, especially when you're talking all this quantum physics stuff and are trying to understand reality, the universe, etc on that deep, relatively unknown level of research and science. If anything, the effects of the substances / drugs you've described, coupled with the sheer power of the brain, the mind, and how very little we know about it all, leads me to lean towards the supernatural rather than nothingness.
  • Michael Wyn Hi David: Thanks for your note. Science is based upon careful observations, empirical evidences and rigorous testings, typically across many disciplines by separate, independent and unbiased observers/scientists. The purpose of scientific study is to discover principle, rule(s) to support or contradict a theory. Science does not rely upon speculation. Bertrand Russell's teapot is the analogy to demand burden of proof upon speculation. Carl Sagan paraphrased as "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Quantum physics is not speculative: in my work we have to adjust satellite atomic clocks regularly thanks to quantum effects and relativity; laser light demonstrates the quanta property of electromagnetic radiation, tunnel diodes are real.... Science cannot argue the possibility of life after death because proving a negative (example: prove that unicorns do not exist) is not possible nor is a scientific method. Science is "organic" meaning if there is evidence/discovery identifying a certain principle violating current understanding science will change. Anyone who identifies a person returning from real death will probably get an immediate Nobel prize in Medicine.
  • Amy Marcos Hold on ! let's bring a TED forum in here before we continue this thread